Talk:Ryoga Hibiki

Does anyone else get a feeling of this page being some of a pro-Ryoga essay/rant? I've tried not to be judgmental, but the page does feel kind of biased on every reading. I have no idea if this is an accurate conception, so I leave that to the more experienced character entry writers to determine and, if neccessary, correct.

That said, there are definately areas that do feel awkwardly long-winded (these also tend to feel the more strongly biased) and which could really do with editing. For example, would not this fit the "sub-paragraph" of the Shi Shi Hokodan much better then what is currently there?

"Because the Shishi Hokodan is depicted as being more powerful when the user is more intensely depressed and weaker when they are less depressed, as well as the instruction scroll proclaiming that "anyone can do it", there is a school of thought that the technique's power stems entirely from the user's emotional state, rather then their own power."

Finally, I thought it was the policy of this wiki that measurements should not be used unless they are officially mentioned in the series itself? Thusly, while it is valid to note Ranma being able to punch Mikado 501 (dubbed anime) or 518 (subbed anime, manga) times during his time in the "Dance of Death" technique, it is not valid to note just how heavy the boulders, etc, Ryoga, Ranma and others have thrown must have been, as such measurements are derived entirely from fan extrapolation and they are thusly fanon? If I am correctly informed, then shouldn't these mentions of weights be removed from this article? Ranime Codexer 17:26, June 15, 2011 (UTC)Ranime Codexer


 * Well, I wrote it long ago, and it turned a bit long-winded and incoherent (although less so than the Ranma page), but I thought that the original version was overall balanced in both mentioning the good and bad, and being mostly matter-of-fact evenhanded in the power and abilities section.


 * In fact, the entry doesn't even mention that Ryoga has had Ranma at his mercy at least 22 times over the span of the series, and never used the opportunity to kill him, while on the other hand risking himself to save Ranma's life or going to extremes in helping him be restored when he was weakened or his curse was locked.


 * What somebody added later, and I modified a bit for accuracy, but still think seem off and should be summarised is this column:


 * A surprising number of (female?) fans consider Ryoga as the character who "deserves" Ranma most/is the best romantic prospect. This is due to Ryoga being the most noble and chivalrous of all the rivals, sharing a similar heroic "Warrior Code" and interests, having complementing strengths, and recurrently coming to Ranma's aid, such as during the "Weakness Moxibustion"/"Hiryu Shoten Ha" storyarc when all of Ranma's other rivals took full advantage of his weakened state, whereas Ryoga not only couldn't bring himself to attack the weakened opponent, but felt heartbroken for losing his worthy rival, protected him from the cowardly assault, and helped Ranma to regain his strength. However, the major problem here is that both of them are very straight, and were stated outright to find the idea of a relationship with the heated (antagonistic brotherly) rival particularly distasteful. For example when a mirror copy of Ranma's female form kisses Ryoga on the cheek, he freezes up and feels "soiled"; and in another instance Ryoga attempts to confess his love for Akane, but accidentally embraces female Ranma instead, causing Ryoga to get paralyzed from the shock, while a ballistic Ranma repeatedly stomps on him at the ground, and Ranma later grumpily states that if Ryoga ever says that again he would hurt him even worse. Hence, it would be extremely out of character, but if someone wants to insert a fully female sister or mirror-clone with very similar personality then it actually does make sense that they should get along quite well.


 * And possibly this one:


 * Out of all of Ranma's rivals in either battle or love, Ryoga distinctively stands out as being more prominent than any of the others. Ryoga's extreme misfortunes (half of which Ranma actually legitimately directly, but unintentionally, caused through the curse, which he is not below feeling guilty about), confusion, mostly noble or chivalrous intentions (more so than any other, with the possible exception of Kumon Ryu, and sharing Ranma's and Akane's "Martial Artist's Code" to defend and definitely not intentionally bully the defenceless), in combination with having saved Ranma's or Akane's lives more times than the reverse, and consistent ability to bring his rival a very serious entertaining challenge, have also caused Ranma to respect, recurrently symphasise with, in some cases aid (such as trying to play match-maker with Ukyo or Akari), and even considers Ryoga as a friend; whereas he outright despises Happosai and Saffron, dislikes Taro, Herb, Shampoo, and Kodachi, considers Nabiki chilling, finds Kuno annoying, and seems mostly ambivalent about Ryu after settling their business or Mousse towards the end of the series. Their relationship is very complex and malleable, shifting between friends or fierce rivals, but are shown to make a very good team once they have set their bickering aside, usually in cases where they face extremelly powerful enemies, such as Pantyhose Taro, Herb, the Yamata-No-Orochi, or Saffron; and by simply comparing them on the paper their different strengths do balance each other well. The two apparently eventually develop somewhat of a substitute strong brotherly rivalry towards each other, similarly to how Ranma seems to view Ukyo and Kasumi as platonic friendly acquaintances or possibly sort-of sisters.


 * For one thing Ranma's nicest martial acquaintances are probably Hinako and Konatsu, but yes coonsidering just how extreme most of the cast are, Ryoga comes across as much more noble and well-intended than most of them. Or to put it another way, he is a generally nice person with bad moments, not somebody who is consistently a complete sociopathic (or psychopathic) asshole like Nabiki, Taro, or Shampoo. Of course the "that makes him much worse due to being a hypocrite" brigade might disagree... not that it makes any true sense, but some do think like that.


 * As for the scale measures, I think that they are very appropriate as most readers (and writers) get the proper scale of the characters completely wrong, whether by placing them close to human or Dragonball Z level. DaveA 09:27, June 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * To be precise, the entries detailing Ryoga seem quite fair - it is just the existence of entries that seem to be aimed against the fan community and its perception of Ryoga that feels out of place. As I noted, the only thing that really needs to be mentioned about the possibility that the Shishi Hokodan draws its power solely from the depression of its user rather then their own power is that such a possibility exists, due to the fact characters state (comments that are shown on-panel/screen to have basis in fact) that one's moodset does affect the Shishi Hokodan. Similarly, it would be much more professional to remove the "minor controversy" entry from the Powers & Abilities, as well as cutting down the heavy "Ryoga vs. Ranma" elements from the previous entries, and replace it all with a "comparison between rivals" entry. Something like this, for example.
 * Comparison Between Rivals: At first glance, the matchup between Ryoga and Ranma seems to be a case of Strong Bruiser vs. Skilled Speedster. Ryoga routinely demonstrates massive feats of strength with even casual actions, apparently being so strong that he can't fully control how much force he uses. He obliviously walks through walls, snaps lightposts, cuts through concrete with his fingers, knocks down trees and generally smashes everything around him, even when he is clearly not intending to do so. For one most prominent example, in one manga story arc in which he sincerely believes female-form Ranma to be his sister, he attempts to deliver a traditional rebuke consisting of a gentle poke on the forehead. In his case, the poke sends Ranma flying across the room, smashing a shelf to pieces when she hits it and embedding her into the wall behind it. In contrast, Ranma is more commonly shown displaying his speed and acrobatics skills, and when he and Ryoga fight, is depicted relying on his ability to evade being hit and to hit Ryoga multiple times before being forced back. This is most explicit in the Bakusai Tenketsu arc, where, after having gone through the Amaguriken training, Ranma is shown as being able to effortlessly dodge Ryoga's blows and pierce his defenses, and towards the end he is forced to rely on his ability to hit the same point on Ryoga's body hundreds of times in the blink of an eye to "drill" through Ryoga's increased resistance to injury. However, a second glance shows that the matchup is far more even then that, with both of the rivals having comparable abilities in all areas. This is most prominent in the later manga, and is is even spoofed during the Mushroom of Aging storyline (in which Ranma & Ryoga are transformed into little kids, eternally squabbling because neither of them can get even the slightest edge over the other), but hints of it are shown from the very first duel between the two on-screen, which includes Ryoga taking to the air to attack Ranma multiple times as well as being able to strike fast enough that the air pressure from his blow alone cuts Ranma's flesh, and Ranma, in his physically weaker girl-form, being able to lift Ryoga's umbrella in one hand, as well as Akane in the other, and spring effortlessly to a branch high in a nearby tree.
 * The scale measures, meanwhile, are entirely fan-generated material, which makes them of dubious veracity at best. They should be removed - or, at the least, placed entirely in their own segment upon each profile, so that readers are aware that these scales are entirely speculation by other readers/viewers, as opposed to being official material in any way, shape or form. Ranma 1/2 is not like the Marvel Universe, we do not manuals containing notes from the author featuring precisely how fast/strong/tough/agile/quick to heal/etc a given character is, so we should not be giving such "stats".
 * Ranime Codexer 18:18, June 16, 2011 (UTC)Ranime Codexer
 * Well, I have no problem whatsoever with rewording any "that pesky fanon" and "some fans think" to "upon first glance", but regarding the actual nature of a deeper non-casual look, what it reveals is that Ryoga explicitly catches up to close to Ranma's level in the speed area as the manga progresses, and handles mutual opponents with comparative skill, as well as that Ranma is also highly durable. It also reveals that "Hmm, Ryoga beat Ranma 22 times over the span of the series. A little over half of them not legitimately, but still... I think Ranma only had about half of that number..."
 * Hence, Ryoga's weakness is his lack of self-esteem and other greater mental limitations, not martial prowess. What a closer inspection definitely does not reveal, is to in any way puncture that Ryoga is very explicitly shown as a few times physically stronger or that Ranma does not have a clear advantage in strategic thinking and flexibility.
 * Meaning something in the vein of: "A closer inspection shows that they are much closer in skill, speed, and likely durability, towards the end of the series than a casual glance would reveal, with the main differences being respective advantages in strength and raw power, or levelheaded strategic flexibility and acrobatics; as well as different special techniques. During their last confrontation arc the author spoofs their relationship by showing them as, in sum total, completely evenly matched, and constantly feuding children."
 * As for the fan estimations (Marvel handbooks are infamous for not going by what the stories themselves say, but...) I have no problem with placing them with Very rough fan estimation: disclaimer at the end of each area section. We should probably replace the 40 metres tag with "over the length of an ice hockey rink" (about 61 metres, if I remember right).
 * Still I rather like to have some very rough "scale suggestion" measurements hammered out, if anybody ways to use the characters. Hence, Ryoga: Able to lift at least 30,000 tonnes, move, but not run, at Mach 2, shrug off most gunfire, project force blasts that can blow tunnels through the earth, and master martial artist with superhuman precision, but very limited common sense or self-control; with Ranma at 10,000 tonnes, Mach 3, and adaptable strategist, ninja stealth, and able to create tornadoes as additions, or somesuch. DaveA 16:48, June 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, see, the problem where we are trying to reach compromise, and you have offered some very palatable suggestions (I would presume your final paragraph is suggesting a sort of "abilities mark-up table"? Sort of a way of summarizing a roughly assumed stats outline of a given character, which would be present in a sidebar/at the end of each character page?), is in this matter. While I do believe that Ryoga is the stronger of the two, especially in the beginning of the series, I don't believe he has that much of a superior strength level to Ranma - on the other hand, I don't believe Ranma's speed is actually that much higher then Ryoga's, either. Both do have the edge in their respective area, I just don't believe they have that great of an advantage - think of it as more of a 10% increase over their rival, rather then something like 50-200% edge.
 * This is why I advocate that the rival comparison should be aimed to be more neutral, as it's really a matter of perception if Rumiko Takahashi was playing the Strength vs. Speed trope straight, or if she was spoofing it by revealing "strong guy is nearly as fast as speedy guy, speedy guy is nearly as strong as strong guy".
 * Still, other then this matter, and I will conceed I am maybe being unreasonable, I have no problems with your suggestions on removing "whining about the fanon/negative perceptions of Ryoga" and on how to "fix" the fanon scales being included.
 * Though, does the Abilities section actually mention Ryoga's greatest physical weakness? I'm talking about his inability to control his strength; whether you perceive it as stemming from the sheer level of his strength or from the fact he is entirely self-taught (and the entry itself should be neutral, because there is no word of god one way or the other). I don't know, it just seem appropriate to me that there should be a section pointing out that when Ryoga isn't fully level headed, he has a canonically displayed tendency to use vastly more force then he would probably be intending. For example, during the Hiryu Shoten Ha arc, while that he was able to shatter that platform due to the fact he is so insanely strong, he didn't actually mean to shatter it; he was just too choked up with guilt over not being able to fight to notice how hard he was prostrating himself. Same thing with the "finger poking of doom" he gave to Yoiko; she had flustered him by teasing him that Akane was his girlfriend, so what he intended to be a harmless tap came off as, well, what it did.Ranime Codexer 17:59, June 19, 2011 (UTC)Ranime Codexer
 * Well, the thing is that all personal biases to the contrary, Ryoga was explicitly shown as stronger in a single finger than female Ranma, and nothing whatsoever contradicts it. All evidence points towards that he genuinely has a severe advantage in this area.
 * Having a hard time controlling his casual level of strength does not mean that he does not notice going 100% (tiring and literally painful to the muscles) full force any more than you or I would.
 * That is an extremely suspicious statement, as anybody who has ever been to a gym would attest, and even if he was going full force in the arm... it was still limited by the strength of the finger in the area of contact.
 * Try for yourself to poke even a considerably weaker person unconscious through exertion, push them to the ground with it, or more morally appropriately use it to strike a boxing sack to the ground for example... it probably will not work at all. He is simply not reining it in 99.999%, which is what is necessary to function in a world of soap bubbles, but at most 50% or so, similar to a regular clumsy and emotional person would...
 * (One of the reasons why I think he's autistic btw, as it is a common trait, and I myself have to continuously put an extra sphere of distance and awareness to not accidentally hurt anybody when turning around or similar. Read Unseen Academicals for example... it is kind of like that for many... a dichotomy of extremely idealistic intellectual nature, and hard-to-understand unfocused epileptic emotions that are released and harmonised through physical exertion... and preferably mediation. It actually is entirely possible that we were brainwashed into master warrior berzerkers in ancient times. I always had an extreme talent for wrestling for example.)
 * I have no problem with mentioning that he does have a problem reining in his strength when emotional, but thought that the page already did so.
 * The brief extreme speed disadvantage on the other hand, explicitly has been contradicted to even out, as Ryoga has been shown able to almost keep up with Ranma's full speed, and severely outpace Mousse or Genma in similar manner to Ranma. Here the disadvantage lies in his lack of self-control and likely acrobatics rather than raw speed. DaveA 08:51, June 20, 2011 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with mentioning that he does have a problem reining in his strength when emotional, but thought that the page already did so.
 * The brief extreme speed disadvantage on the other hand, explicitly has been contradicted to even out, as Ryoga has been shown able to almost keep up with Ranma's full speed, and severely outpace Mousse or Genma in similar manner to Ranma. Here the disadvantage lies in his lack of self-control and likely acrobatics rather than raw speed. DaveA 08:51, June 20, 2011 (UTC)